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Monday, 1 July 1996 Volume 02 : Number 135
In this issue:
Re: Photos of My Car
Re: Chase and his List of Faults
Re: Chase and his List of Faults
Clutch, Brakes, a/c, A-C-D, and a spiffy winter storage
x-reference
Trans Lube?
Re: BTTF toys
Recommended preventative modifications?
Distributing Club Information
Re: Stainless Steel Cleaning Kit & Oil Filter
Re: Mechanics and Updates
Re: Mechanics and Updates
Suitable Oil Filters
Fan Troubles
Re: Suitable Oil Filters
Re: Suitable Oil Filters
Delorean Door Struts
Re: D1 Shipping Charges
Re: Windshields ans Antennas
Broke Brakes
Re: glove box latch
FS: BTTF Delorean 1/24 model
Brake Rotor Turning
Door Struts & Torsion Bar
The always illusive-Stainless Steel Illusion
Re: Door Struts & Torsion Bar
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chase Clark, stormrider(AT)socketis.net
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:01:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Photos of My Car
>We're all dying to see your car. Has it ever been pictured in
>DeLorean World? I've seen some red DeLoreans that could
>really benefit from custom wheels.
Mike:
As far as I am aware the car hasn't received any attention in magazines or
books to date. I'm unaware of its history beyond the last owner, but doubt
there is much special about it to be honest. A few months ago I posted two
UUencoded scans of photographs of my car taken last year after bringing it
to Missouri from its previous home in Oregon. I can always repost these
photos to the appropriate binary newsgroups. Give me a few days to dig out
the old files and I'll try to do this. Once it IS done, I'll post here
what
newsgroups they can be found in on the 'Net.
I have got clearance from my ISP to create my own web page, which I will
devote mostly to the DeLorean and Macintosh OS platform, but most likely I
will be too busy to get to creating the content until late July or early
August.
~ Chase
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stormrider Media Productions P.O. Box 105301
Chase Clark, Co-Owner Jefferson City, Missouri
65110-5301
Voice/Fax (573)635-0622 Email: stormrider(AT)socketis.net
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: mikasa, mikasa(AT)goodnet.com
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:49:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Chase and his List of Faults
I mean, list of Delorean faults, not Chase's PERSONAL list of faults ;)
I wanted to let everyone know how muchi appreciate Chase taking the reins
on this project. A few other list members and myself embarked on this
several months ago, and it languished near the bottom of my list of
things to do until Chase volunteered to take charge. This list will be
invaluable to both long-time owners, new owners and owners-to-be. I look
forward to seeing it completed!
James
------------------------------
From: Chase Clark, stormrider(AT)socketis.net
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:22:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Chase and his List of Faults
>I mean, list of Delorean faults, not Chase's PERSONAL list of faults ;)
James:
I think being stupid enough to have owned three British cars in my short
12
years of driving experience is near the top of everyone's list of my
"personal faults" anyway. Ha Ha!!
That and being so picky about the condition of them and the quality of
work
done by mechanics and the like.
~ Chase
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stormrider Media Productions P.O. Box 105301
Chase Clark, Co-Owner Jefferson City, Missouri
65110-5301
Voice/Fax (573)635-0622 Email: stormrider(AT)socketis.net
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Mike Substelny, SUBSTEM(AT)cesmtp.ccf.org
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:51:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Clutch, Brakes, a/c, A-C-D, and a spiffy winter storage
Chase said:
>When I purchased my '81 DeLorean #1529 it had 12,143
>miles on it and the original clutch was going bad.
>If I remember correctly, I believe someone told me that the
>clutch plate AND brake disc rotors on the EARLY '81s were
>made from too hard of an alloy and wore out extremely fast.
I'm VIN #1280, and I never heard of the things you mention.
The previous owner said the clutch and rotors on my car
were original, but he has been wrong before! At 50,000 miles
I just lost my clutch, but my rotors are in good shape. I drive
my car quite a bit, but I always shift and brake as gently as I
can. I had the rotors turned last year, when I replaced all my
brake pads, and the mechanic said everything went
"smoothly" ;-)
Sorry to hear about your a/c. My vent selector system has
always worked fine and my fan blows like a hurricane. It
rains a lot in Cleveland, so if I couldn't rely on my vents to go
into "defog the windshield" mode I couldn't drive my car
safely. At the same time, my rear window never gets any
fog. I have yet to need my rear defogger for its intended
purpose.
A STORAGE OPTION:
Chase also mentioned Duesenbergs in a note. Those big
Depression-era beauties are without a doubt the classiest
cars ever made! Unfortunately, the A-C-D Festival is the
same weekend as Nashville, or I'd be back. BTW the Tin
Goose did not sell, so it may be auctioned again this year.
Tucker, anyone?
The Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg festival is always Labor Day
weekend in Auburn, Indiana. The highlights are a
spectacular car parade and a MAJOR car auction. The
A-C-D Museum is in the same city, in the cool art-deco
building where they used to design and sell cars right at the
factory. In one of the adjacent A-C-D factory buildings they
recently put in a new museum: The National Automobile and
Truck Museum (NATMUS).
Last year NATMUS had more space than it had cars to
display, so they offered this deal whereby they would store
collectable cars *IN THE MUSEUM* for the winter. The price
was about the same as renting a self-storage garage. Even
though it is hundreds of miles away, I was tempted to store
my DeLorean there. When friends asked me, "So where's
your DeLorean, Mike?" I would say, "It's on display at The
National Automobile and Truck Museum."
Pretty cool way to impress women, huh? As far as I know,
the deal is available again this year.
- -Mike Substelny
------------------------------
From: Frederick Embden, NOTES.FEMBDEN(AT)A50VM1.trg.nynex.COM
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 13:21:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: x-reference
Just a note to assist other DMC owners who may not have "like" auto
stores in
their area. In obtaining a x-reference part, please also list the
application.
ie. oil sending unit "part # XXXXXXXX 1986 Volvo 240."
Thanks.
------------------------------
From: ausmith(AT)pdx.oneworld.com
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:32:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Trans Lube?
Does anyone know of any updates concerning the lubricant used in the
5 spd. transmission? I am going to drain and change the fluid and it
seems to me that the recommended lubricant is really out of date.
A lot of new cars and trucks, including my Ford 4X4, use ATF in
their stick shift transmissions.
------------------------------
From: Back to the Future...The Fan Club, time(AT)Traveller.COM
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:49:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: BTTF toys
>Anyone interested in BTTF toys might check out their
>nearest Star Trek convention.
Or, you can contact "Back to the Future...The Fan Club" for mail =
order of
these type items. We have plenty of DeLorean related toys in stock, =
and we
will have a booth offering these items at the DeLorean Expo Products =
Fair in
Nashville on August 29th.
To Be Continued...
Stephen M. Clark, President
Back to the Future=99...The Fan Club
11101 Cardinal Drive
Madison, AL 35758-5803
Voice/Fax: (205) 230-6288
E-mail: time(AT)traveller.com
URL: http://www.traveller.com/~bttf/
------------------------------
From: Aaron R.Teitlebaum, arteitle(AT)engin.umich.edu
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:50:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Recommended preventative modifications?
Though I don't yet own a DeLorean, I look forward to someday
getting one. Nonetheless, I'm interested in learning all I can about
repairing and maintaining them. So, my question is this: what
modifications, replacements, and upgrades should the new DeLorean owner
immediately perform on his or her car? Also, what kind of luck have the
readers of this list had with getting service or modifications done by
local, independent mechanics, versus nationwide chain service centers?
------------------------------
From: Solitary Man, awolf(AT)pacific.telebyte.net
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:51:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Distributing Club Information
The problem came when i was looking through my documentation that I have
piled up from different clubs and outfits across the world. I came
across two
information packets, a fan fail modification packet and door lock
modification
packet that described how to update and modify these to work properly,
neverfail. I did not know where these came from, nor that they were
"Club
Member Only" information, as it was not stamped anywhere on them, nor was
I ever
told in any fasion. I decided that DeLorean owners should have this
information
and offered them for $5 dllars to cover the price to get them packed,
stamped
and taken to the post office.
Somewhere along the line word got to the right people...albeit faulty
word, that I was distributing club only information, modification
packets, parts
interchange lists, etc... for outrageous prices...Most of which, I, a
club
member, didn't even have. And I'll mention it again, I wasn't told in
any way
or fasion that what I did offer was club only information.
Perhaps I made a mistake, perhaps I wasn't at fault. At any rate, I am
respecting my clubs wishes. They're good people and had a valid concern
based
on the faulty information they recieved. Matters have, for the most
part, been
cleared up, and I reimbursed the club for the $5 I did collect for their
information, I believe I may have even given them $10...oh well...*SHRUG*
Sufficed to say, I am now keeping PNDC (Pacific Northwest DeLorean Club)
information seperate as to not
have it happen again. I wanted to make clear that the part I mentioned
in my
post as to Oil Pressuire Senders, was NOT club only information. It was
NOT
club information in any way. In fact, the information the club gave me
was
faulty. No harm done, I saw the blatent mistake and returned the part
immediately and began my own part crossing using specs from the part I
removed
from my car.
Be seeing you.........
Wolfie
------------------------------
From: Marvin S.Sterling, marv930(AT)ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:55:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Cleaning Kit & Oil Filter
At 09:51 AM 6/27/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
< snip >
>
>Since the Volvo engine was used in the car, would the Volvo oil filter
>work? It would be more economical to buy them from Volvo.... Or does the
>suppliers filter have a better oil flow system?
>
>The Bowie British Car day was a huge success! We had 9 cars there. I think
we had more
>people at the Delorean coral than anywhere else. Big thank you's go out
>to owners who came, expect the video tapes shortly.
>
>With kind regards
>
>MIchael Pack
>
_____________________reply
Yes ! The Volvo fuel filter works.
Regards,
Marv
------------------------------
From: Chase Clark, stormrider(AT)socketis.net
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 12:39:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Mechanics and Updates
>modifications, replacements, and upgrades should the new DeLorean owner
>immediately perform on his or her car? Also, what kind of luck have the
>readers of this list had with getting service or modifications done by
>local, independent mechanics, versus nationwide chain service centers?
Aaron:
The vast majority of recommended updates should be included in the first
edition of the Common Faults FAQ due out by August 1. I expect a few items
to be left out or all-together wrong, but hopefully by the end of August
the FAQ will be on its third and final revision.
As to having "normal" mechanics work on a DeLorean. I say DON'T DO IT!!
It's not that they are too unskilled to work on these cars or that the
engineering of the drivetrain is too exotic for them. Neither is actually
true. The problem is that they have no experience on these cars, lack the
appropriate service information and will generally behave like they know
more than you about the car and go about doing whatever they want. They
also generally won't treat it with the respect and tender care you think
it
deserves and you may find yourself bitching about the quality of their job
once it's done.
Even some of the "semi-experts" that work on these cars somewhat
frequently
lack knowledge of every system and will tell you something is wrong when
it
isn't or completely misdiagnose a problem that a place like DMC in TX,
DeLorean One in CA or PJ Grady in NY can diagnose over the phone from just
a description of it.
My DeLorean been in two shops. One in Oregon and one in Missouri. The one
in Oregon was "semi-skilled" and didn't mess anything up to my knowledge
but did miss a major problem and misdiagnosed a couple of others despite
having the car for six weeks. My regular mechanic in Missouri was
"unskilled," despite having worked my old Porsche and a number of other
previous cars with no problems, yet they managed to do more things wrong
than right when I took it in to have the new radiator installed and freon
recharged.
Needless to say it will not be going back there and I will ALWAYS perform
my own work from now on whenever possible. And if I can't do it myself,
I'll likely take it 150+ miles to a mechanic that originally was trained
by
DMC as a factory mechanic. If he screws up too, will then I may have to
head to TX, CA or NY for major repairs should I ever need any.
~ Chase
------------------------------
From: mikasa, mikasa(AT)goodnet.com
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:31:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Mechanics and Updates
>immediately perform on his or her car? Also, what kind of luck have the
>readers of this list had with getting service or modifications done by
>local, independent mechanics, versus nationwide chain service centers?
Mechanical service for DeLorean owners, at least those of us not near a
PJ Grady, DMC or D1 will always be an issue. A few of us take great pride
and pleasure in doing the work ourselves, but many us us either don't
have the time or the inclination to "get greasy". I think this is one fo
the advantages of belonging to SOME kind of an owners group. As the DOA
chapter coordinator for Arizona, we're learning from each other where is
a good place to take our cars and where to avoid. Even if the there is no
local group in your area, a few years back the DOA published a small
booklet listing member-recommended service centers throughout the
country. This book is currently being updated as some of the info is no
longer accurate, and I believe it will be re-released later this year.
I personally do a great deal of work myself, but if I don't have the
time, or the task is too daunting, I have a local independent Volvo shop
that is quite adept at servicing my "D".
James
------------------------------
From: BRS6688(AT)ACS.TAMU.EDU
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 15:59:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Suitable Oil Filters
I saw in the last list that someone was looking for a suitable
replacement for the oil filter. I have found that the filter
used on the Lexus SC400 fits and works perfectly. It is slightly
smaller in total volume than the french originals, but, if you change
your oil every three thousand or so miles this is completely
inconsequiental.
Hope it helps.
Burton
------------------------------
From: Bdofprey(AT)aol.com
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:40:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fan Troubles
My fan also used to "flick" on and off. I resolved itself atfer I
replaced
the relay. Now when the fan comes on the fan fail light illuminates but
the
fan works properly
------------------------------
From: Ddl52(AT)aol.com
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:43:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Suitable Oil Filters
I've been using NAPA Auto Parts oil filter # 1342 for several years
without
any problems in my Delorean.
Dennis
------------------------------
From: Marvin S.Sterling, marv930(AT)ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:43:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Suitable Oil Filters
BRS6688(AT)ACS.TAMU.EDU wrote:
>
> I saw in the last list that someone was looking for a suitable
> replacement for the oil filter. I have found that the filter
> used on the Lexus SC400 fits and works perfectly. It is slightly
> smaller in total volume than the french originals, but, if you change
> your oil every three thousand or so miles this is completely
> inconsequiental.
> Hope it helps.
>
> Burton
- -----------------------comment
The Puegeot filters that belong in the D can be obtained from P.J. Grady,
I get a few at a time and keep one of them + a fuel filter and air filter
in the "trunk" p.s. I assume that a Volvo dealer should have the oil
filters since it is/was the P(uegeot) R(enault) V(volvo) power plant last
used by the Volvo 740, saw one recently and it was strange seeing the
engine in a reverse configuration.
Regards,
Marv
------------------------------
From: Ddl52(AT)aol.com
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:35:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Delorean Door Struts
Does anyone know if there are sources for door struts besides the regular
Delorean suppliers? I know there are for the sunshade and luggage lid. Any
info appreciated.
DENNIS
------------------------------
From: aerostar(AT)ccia.com
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:35:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: D1 Shipping Charges
Damien Falato, dgf108(AT)psu.edu wrote:
>D1 uses, as far as I can tell, a U.S. based phantom freight method. Thier
>shipping is done by UPS and they send, from thier CA shop, via 3rd day
>delivery. I get the impression that they went through thier UPS book and
>found the moxt expensive place to ship to either in the lower 48 or all
>50.
This is a common practice in the catalog/direct marketing industry, not
just with D1. The next time you see one of those $19.95 widgits being
advertised on TV, take note of the shipping charge; now THERE is a little
profit center most people overlook.
Eric Friedebach aerostar(AT)ccia.com
------------------------------
From: aerostar(AT)ccia.com
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:35:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Windshields ans Antennas
Mike Substelny, SUBSTEM(AT)cesmtp.ccf.org, wrote in V2 #125:
>TIP:
>I called KAPAC, D-1, and a few other places looking for an
>original windshield. They generally said the same thing:
>most of the original units are coming delaminated at the
>bottom due to age. The good ones that were left were very
>expensive. They could sell me a bad one if I really wanted it,
>or they could sell me an aftermarket model. Curious, I
>looked at the cracked windshield on my very early 1981 car,
>and the lamination was still PERFECT. I was puzzled.
>
>At this point I actually went to KAPAC to see this
>"delamination" problem for myself. (KAPAC usually does not
>allow visits like this!). I looked through a crate of 1983
>original factory windshields and sure enough, all of them have
>bubbles in the black area at the bottom.
>
>So why is my original glass lamination okay after an even
>longer amount of time?
>
>I believe that many of the original units still available are from
>a batch that was rejected from production at the DMC
>factory. This is not an aging problem; the lamination was
>bad the day they were made.
Eric sez:
The delamination could be caused from the fact that the windshields were
not installed in a frame. With no pressure on the edges of the glass,
this
might have caused some separation in the past 15+ years. Did the ones you
saw at KAPAC have any sort of packaging around the edges to provide some
pressure? At any rate, once installed, I would think the separation would
be minimal from then on.
>QUESTION:
>I haven't had my new windshield put in yet because I want
>the radio antenna glued into it. I know this gets terrible radio
>reception, and I mean TERRIBLE, but the shape of the car
>looks so much better without that mechanical mast sticking
>out of the rear quarter. I have a good mechanic who will do
>the job, but I need to find an aftermarket wire antenna that is
>the correct length. The only one I found is too short. I have
>plenty of local sources. Can anyone recommend a
>make/model of wire antenna that fits?
Or give this a try:
A company called Grove Enterprises developed an "in-car" wide band antenna
that connects to the ground of the car body, making the entire car body
an
active antenna. While originally developed for radio enthusiasts that
wanted to avoid the "porcupine" look of having a scanner antenna on their
car, it should work with your AM/FM radio since the frequency range is
1-1000 MHz.
Of course, nothing will match the performance of a mast antenna.
The Grove antenna may, or may not, be better than the windshield dipole
you
wrote about. But at least you wouldn't have an aftermarket installation
that is visible. Bit of trivia: JZD came up with the idea of a dipole
inside the laminations of car windshields in the sixties.
Contact Grove at 704-837-7081 and ask about their ANT 20. With the proper
Motorola connector it sells for about $25. They also have an extensive
web
page at www.grove.com. I would _guess_ you could e-mail them at
info(AT)grove.com, or something like it.
Eric Friedebach aerostar(AT)ccia.com
------------------------------
From: Richard Strecker, dmc1219(AT)eos.eos.net
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 22:48:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Broke Brakes
Why is it that sometimes when I apply the brakes the D stops smoothly
like it should and other times it is like it has a mind of its own. I
have had the alignment checked & set, I have replaced both front caliper
assemblies -- yes there really is an available EXACT replacement for
$30.00 ea. I have replaced and/or had turned all 4 rotors, had one of
the rear calipers rebuilt ($85.00 - rape!!) replaced the parking brake
pad spreaders ( I can tell you where to get those also). Still the same
problem.
What have I missed?
Wheel bearings changed, CV joints clean & boots intact, rear drag link
bolts changed, drag link mounting bushings changed.
------------------------------
From: SCiszek(AT)aol.com
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 18:30:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: glove box latch
>THE GLOVE BOX LATCH HAS FALLEN APART. ANYONE KNOW WHERE TO GET AN OEM
>REPLACEMENT, WHAT OTHER CARS USE THE SAME LATCH?
>
>The glove box latch on my '81 DeLorean has Volkswagen markings on it.
Yes, the glove box latch is from a Volkswagon Scirocco.
- Scott Ciszek
------------------------------
From: John K, jhk(AT)sonic.net
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 18:30:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FS: BTTF Delorean 1/24 model
Just wanted to let you all know, I have 3 Delorean Back to the Future
1/24th scale models for sale. They are out of production now. The
models are made by IMX Corporation. They are made in Japan. $25.00 each
+ shipping. Please email jhk(AT)sonic.net if interested. They are new in
sealed boxes. (They need to be assembled)
------------------------------
From: BRS6688(AT)ACS.TAMU.EDU
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 18:30:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Brake Rotor Turning
Chase,
I noticed that you wrote a while back that the brake rotors would warp
when being turned by a mechanic. This is interesting since my car exhibits
all ofthe signs of needing the rotors turned. (steering wheel shake during
braking,etc) Have you or anyone else out there heard of what is to be
done?
I certainly want to try to avoid having to buy new rotors, since I don't
know of any cross-reference part. Any info is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Burton
------------------------------
From: Chase Clark, stormrider(AT)socketis.net
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 18:30:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Door Struts & Torsion Bar
Dennis:
No, I doubt there are any other sources for the door struts. You might
find
some struts that are the same length as the DeLorean door struts, but it
is
unlikely that they will be pressurized right as to not throw off the
delicate relationship of the struts and the torsion bars.
BTW, is it possible to adjust the torsion bar without obtaining a special
tool to do so? My passenger side door is quite overly aggressive and will
rock the car if allowed to open freely. I'd like to adjust it, but someone
told me a special tool is needed and I have never seen it listed in any
DeLorean catalogs. Any help on the tools needed and procedure to do so
will
be most appreciated.
~ Chase
------------------------------
From: SCiszek(AT)aol.com
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 18:30:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The always illusive-Stainless Steel Illusion
I just got back from NY yesterday. I had hoped to vist one of the
DeLorean mechanics in the area ( DeLorean Gold or PJ Grady) but we
decided to
visit the Museum of Modern art instead. I was able to get to a few book
stores and the library in search of any book pertaining to DeLorean but
most
especially the illusive, Stainless Steel Illusion. I was estatic to find
that
SSI was owned by the library. The main branch told me that all of their
science, business, economics and technology books were in a new branch
some 7
blocks away. Not there. In disgust I went to the computer and looked up
the
book once again. It told me the book was located on the 4th floor of at
main
branch of the library. First of all there is no 4th floor accessible to
the
public and suppossedly all the books had been moved.
For all you DeLorean owners and enthusitsts living in NY or anywhere
for that matter the call number for Stainless Steel Illusion is 629.2222L
so
rush to your local library now and see if they have a copy. As for me, I'm
going to head on down to the Library of Congress this week and see if I
can
find it there.
I put an inquiry as to the meaning of the black stripe down the
center
of my fathers DeLorean and recieved a reply:
>This stripe was a prototype style, it is not avaliable to buy aftermarket,
it comes >with the car and there were only about 100 made with this
stripe....
Is this true? As I understood it, the decal was a dealer option.
-Scott Ciszek
------------------------------
From: Ddl52(AT)aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 01:38:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Door Struts & Torsion Bar
Chase - Delorean World volume 3 #4 has an article on the procedure for
adjusting the torsion bars. It also lists the required tools and
supplies. I think Delorean One rents a kit for this purpose.
Dennis
------------------------------
End of dmcnews-digest V2 #135
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