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Wednesday, 31 July 1996 Volume 02 : Number 148
In this issue:
Fiero / rear axle / reliability / fuel leak / brakes
D Won't go uphill
Re: Slipping clutch
Clutch removal
Re: original clutch
Acceleration
Re: Fuel Line Replacement
DMC mechanics
Re: DMC mechanics
master cylinder
Re: dmcnews-digest V2 #147
Re: DMC mechanics
Concours Rules and Regs
reliability
Re: Proper Brake Fluid (was Re: Creeping Brake Pedal)
Re: Mechanics
Electric Leaks
Fuel Filter Replacement
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: SUBSTEM(AT)cesmtp.ccf.org
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:51:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fiero / rear axle / reliability / fuel leak / brakes
Chase said:
>I guess after it proved to be a flop . . .
Too bad. I know a lot of people love their Fieros, but the truth
is that the Fiero could have been better. GM could have had
a rival for the Porsche 911 if they really wanted to.
Chris said:
>Owning a DeLorean gets you introduced into a select club.
Amen!
David Hutchinson said:
>look at the back mailing lists and notice how many people
>have replaced their clutch at such low miles.
I forgot to mention that my "clutch" problem last month was
NOT the clutch after all! Somehow my right real axle
assembly stripped out all its splines, so the axle was
spinning while the wheel just sat there. This must have
looked pretty funny; I wish I'd shot video! At 50,000+ miles
with lots of city driving MY ORIGINAL CLUTCH IS STILL
GOING STRONG. If you replace the polymer hydraulic line
with a steel one and drive conservatively, the five speed
should give you great service for decades.
I have never timed my car 0-60 and probably never will. If I
had wanted to pull gee's I would have kept my Trans Am with
the 400 cid V8. Accelleration is not very important to me,
and I consider myself one of the young DeLorean owners!
David said:
>My experience (and from reading this mail list) is that no
>Deloreans last without a lot of work (or money) from the
>owner.
James wrote an eloquent response, but I believe it was not
emphatic enough. Of coures you hear about a lot of
problems in the DML, that's why it's here! If I sent a
message every time I went on a 500 mile trip with no
problems you'd all get an extra page every Monday morning!
Before I bought my DeLorean I consulted the owners of
Corvettes and Porches that were also made in the early '80s.
Talk about cars that need to be mollycoddled! And parts for
those cars are no bargain! For a fifteen year old car my
DeLorean is the model of reliability.
Stan Chin said:
>My DMC has a fuel leak under the car? How do you
>replace the fuel lines located under the car?
Please describe the location of the leak more precisely. Is it
in the feed line or the return line? Can you actually see the
leak? Naturally leaks can occur anywhere, but connections
and fittings are likely culprits. The polyethelene tank itself is
as tough as can be, but the hoses going in / out of the tank
can leak pretty easily, especially the steel lines. The lid of
the fuel gauge sender can also leak. Wherever it is, I would
not seal the leak with caulk, as this may lead to fuel
contamination.
C2 said:
>Whenever I press the brake (standing still OR moving) the
>pedal will hold for about two seconds and then slowly creep
>toward the floor as if I had a line open.
Please tell us: Does your car pull left or right when you slow?
You may be getting half calliper action on one of your
brakes. This *could* fit the symptoms you described without
leaking any fluid. You should inspect your brakes like this:
Look at both inboard and outboard sides of all four rotors. Do
you see seven shiny surfaces and one slightly dull surface?
That indicates one bad slave cylinder. Otherwise you may
have a problem in your master cylinder.
And one final comment on insurance: I wanted so badly to
get in on the insurance offered by DOA two years ago.
Sadly the service was withdrawn after a very brief life, I
believe due to a mediocre responce from members. I met all
the requirements of the policy, except owning my own home.
Because so many DeLorean owners are young, I think the
service would have been successful if they also offered a
policy taylored for us renters.
- -Mike Substelny
------------------------------
From: Curtis C.Ballard, curtisb(AT)gr.hp.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:29:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: D Won't go uphill
We have a strange problem with my dad's DeLorean. I recently drove it on
a
750 mile trip and it functioned perfectly until 15 miles from his house
then it appeared to run out of gas. The gauge showed 1/2 tank, but I
had just had the pump out and tore the return tube, so thought I might
have
damaged the pickup tube as well. Put more gas in and drove on home. Last
weekend dad drove the car over the same stretch of road and it did the
same
thing to him. This time with a full tank and he had inspected the pickup
tube 200 miles before and found it to be ok. He said he restarted the car
and driving in 2nd he could make it go. The only thing I can see unique
about that stretch of road is that it is a really long steep climb. We
have driven it over a lot of short steep climbs with no problem. On the
hill where it keeps quitting the road varries between 6% and 8% for about
5
miles and it is fairly straight so you can go about 65-70 (non-interstate
very rural).
Any ideas? Dad is extremely frustrated as it seems every time he turns
around something on this car is broken and he is no stranger to quirky
cars.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curtis C. Ballard (970)
350-4014
Hewlett Packard
curtisb(AT)gr.hp.com
Storage Systems Operation R&D Lab Greeley,
CO
------------------------------
From: Chase Clark, stormrider(AT)socketis.net
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:39:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Slipping clutch
>The clutch in my 81 Delorean is slipping very badly does anyone
>know if there is adjustment in the cable. If not does the engine
>have to come out to replace clutch parts.
No, the engine itself does not have to be removed to replace the clutch,
although I can not say the same thing for the transmission. I believe the
shop that replaced my clutch did remove the 5-speed transmission and
replace some seals, but I do not know for sure if it HAD to be removed.
This might give you some clue as to the extent of the job - Replacing a
clutch does tend to take about 7-12 labor hours. And while youy are in
there, you might as well check the crossgate (shift) cable and make sure
you have the steel-braided clutch line.
~ Chase
------------------------------
From: Knut S Grimsrud, Knut_S_Grimsrud(AT)ccm.jf.intel.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:39:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Clutch removal
Text item: External Message Header
Norman Vennard, norman.vennard(AT)shorts.co.uk writes:
> The clutch in my 81 Delorean is slipping very badly does anyone
> know if there is adjustment in the cable. If not does the engine
> have to come out to replace clutch parts.
The engine does not have to come out to remove the clutch.
To get the clutch out, you do have to loosen a couple motor
mounts and then jack/lift the rear of the engine slightly so
that the front of the transmission dips down and allows it
to clear the undercarriage. I'm not sure if the procedure is
outlined in the workshop manual, but you should have one in
any case. Get one from any DeLorean parts house.
Knut Grimsrud
DOA Chapter 41
------------------------------
From: Knut S Grimsrud, Knut_S_Grimsrud(AT)ccm.jf.intel.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:40:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: original clutch
Text item: Message
Jeff Frailey, jfrailey(AT)NIIA.Net writes:
> However, I think I'd prefer to stay
> with a firm gripping clutch than not.
> Question: Does a firm clutch mean that I
> have to have a stiff peddle?
The original clutch has a strange combination of a stiff
pedal and poor action. I have had good luck with the
Centerforce aftermarket clutch. This clutch costs about the
same as the original, but I personally like it better. The
pedal is much softer than the original, yet it engages much
better. It engaged so well when it was new that I had some
trouble with jack-rabbit starts until I got used to it.
I like the feel better -- it seems more "aggressive" to me
- -- and I would suspect that a clutch that engages well would
last longer. These are just my opinions. Incidentally, you
can get the Centerforce clutch from most DeLorean supply
places (I think I got mine from DeLorean Motor Center).
Knut Grimsrud
DOA Chapter 41
Text item:
------------------------------
From: Chase Clark, stormrider(AT)socketis.net
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:40:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Acceleration
No, the DeLorean does not accelerate like in the first few gears. But that
is no big deal for several reasons...
1) The DeLorean is a car that doesn't need to "prove" itself at a stop
light every time a teenager pulls up in a Camaro or Mustang.
2) I have not met anyone that was stupid enough to challenge my car yet
that wasn't driving a rusted-out Pinto, Horizon, etc. No sensible driver
in
a Corvette wants to risk being blown away by the DeLorean and deflating
his
ego about his 'Vette. There are two questions to which I never give a
straight answer (except to other DeLorean owners and true enthusiasts).
One
is how much my car cost me and the other is how fast the car is. I always
say "enough" and "with twin turbos it will keep up with a Porsche 930."
Sure, we know the stock DeLorean won't blow away a 'Vette, but 99 percent
of 'Vette and Mustang owners don't know that. :)
3) The gear ratio is definitely set up for highway cruising. I have found
myself going down the highway in third and fourth gear more than a few
times without even noticing it for quite a while. My DeLorean hits 70mph
at
around 2500 RPM in fifth gear. Add about 500 RPM to achieve the same in
fourth gear and another 500 RPM for third gear. 70mph at 3500 RPM in third
gear is quite acceptable and gives you a lot of room for downshifting from
fifth gear whenever passing other cars in a hurry.
~ Chase
------------------------------
From: Stan Chin, s4ychin(AT)srv.PacBell.COM
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:49:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Fuel Line Replacement
Chase and Mike,
It's a rubber fuel hose which is leaking at one end. It's about 1 or 2
feet
long which connects at one end which may be a fuel pump (metal device
with 2
connections to it) and curves around and connects to a coupler located up
higher which may be to the fuel lines to the engine. It is located under
the
car (directly under the back of the seats) in a rectangular area with an
opening about 9 inches by 6 inches. Sorry if this does not make sense,
but
I haven't looked at it since about 4 weeks ago.
To others,
Where's a service shop in Northern California (I live in San Jose) to
take a
Delorean in if I am unable to replace the fuel hose?
Thanks,
Stan
------------------------------
From: Mike Substelny, SUBSTEM(AT)cesmtp.ccf.org
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:49:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: DMC mechanics
Eric Friedebach said:
>DeLorean Cadillac is owned by JZD's brother Chuck, so
>let's assume Chuck went to some extra effort to make sure
>his staff was well aquatinted with the DMC-12.
I believe DeLorean Cadillac is now owned by JZD's nephew
Mark. Mark DeLorean is a great guy and he definitely has a
staff that works on the cars a lot.
I have found no fewer than three independent mechanics here
in Cleveland who worked for DeLorean Cadillac in the 80's
and were trained to service the cars (two did mechanical
work and one specialized in the stainless body). They all live
within a few minutes of my house. There should be scads of
these trained mechanics out there, we just need to track
them down. Does anyone know where we could obtain a list
of all former DeLorean dealers, even ones that are out of
business?
- -Mike Substelny
------------------------------
From: mikasa(AT)goodnet.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 14:09:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: DMC mechanics
>within a few minutes of my house. There should be scads of
>these trained mechanics out there, we just need to track
>them down. Does anyone know where we could obtain a list
>of all former DeLorean dealers, even ones that are out of
>business?
The DOA is in the process of updating the booklet of shops that work on
DeLoreans, I think it's expected to be released later this year.
Incidentally, DMC put out a booklet listing all the dealers, I have one,
and I'm sure many others out there do as well. Rather than put my faith
in it, or even do the legwork to findd out which if the 340-some dealers
are stil around, and which of those will still do work on the DeLorean,
I'm going to wait for the Association to put out it's list.
James
------------------------------
From: Richard Strecker, dmc1219(AT)eos.eos.net
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 23:08:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: master cylinder
Jeff,
did you find an aftermarket master cylinder or did you get one from
DMC?? I've replaced every other component in the brake system & still
am having problems. If someone has a number for a rebuild kit or a
source for a reasonably priced master cylinder I would certainly like to
hear from them.
Thanks,
Richard
------------------------------
From: Bruce Benson, Delornut(AT)aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 23:23:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: dmcnews-digest V2 #147
The last DMC NEWS brought up several things that center on the issue of
the
Delorean being a high maintenance, marginally reliable, SLOW car. Ray Haug
felt he should get his two cents in and now it's my turn. I've owned my
'81
Delorean 5 spd since new. I've done virtually all the work on it. It's
lowered
with a custom designed single turbocharger producing a conservative 5.5
lbs
of boost. The ignition system has been modified to the tune of a knock
sensing module that momentarily retards the ignition when the first
milli-second of pinging is heard. I admit I go a little overboard in
regards
to maintenance. I change oil, on the average of every 2,000 miles and I
flush
and change brake fluid every other summer. While I don't drive it in
winter,
I'm not afraid of a little rain. We've taken several cross country trips
between Minnesota, California and other points west. The total mileage is
about 45,000 and I have the original clutch which still works very well.
Clutch problems stem from driving styles, habits and I suppose one could
include traffic conditions. You should learn to get under way with the
least
amount of slippage possible. I don't baby this car. Last month I had the
opportunity to run 1/2 hour of track time at Road America. I was one of
several cars getting this opportunity after the days races and, although
we
were on a non-competitive tour, we were encouraged to "push it" with
passing
allowed on the front straight. I can tell you that if the revs (and boost
in
my case) are kept up coming in and out of the turns, base engine, 4 spd
Corvettes of the same vintage are NO competition. I had to hold back
through
the turns to keep from running over one and had no problem getting several
car lengths ahead on the front straight, the first half of which is up
hill !
There are a few automobile writers across the country that just seem to
hate
the DeLorean. When the car initially came out it had two or three recalls.
Not bad for a car all new from the ground up and coming from a brand new
factory with a still learning work force. Look at how many recalls the
Chrysler mini-van alone has had since its introduction. We all know the
electrics had a few glitches and the windows
( mine still work fine ) don't have any kind of limit switches. You MUST
watch them carefully and stop them before they can damage some of the
plastic
joints in the track. But over all, as Jim Espey stated, with preventative
maintenance these cars are very reliable. He also reminded you that they
are
15 years old so previous owners dedication, or lack of it, is more to
blame
for many problems showing up here in the News Letter. By the way, the
upgrade
replacement clutch is made by Centerforce and all the DeLorean Shops carry
them. You don't have to pull the engine to replace it. You do have to drop
the transmission. It's no big deal and any shop that's replaced a clutch
should be able to handle it. It's much easier than a front wheel drive
clutch
replacement. The only special tool needed is an clutch alignment tool
which
is sold at most auto stores.
Oh, and for the guy who said the automatic and the 5 Spd are equally slow,
join the Wisconsin Sports Car and GT Rally next June and bring your
automatic
to Road America.
Bruce Benson
------------------------------
From: Raymond Haug, Raymond_Haug(AT)lamg.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:21:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: DMC mechanics
On 7/30/96 at 12:22 AM, dmcnews(AT)world.std.com wrote:
d> Does anyone know where we could obtain a list
d> of all former DeLorean dealers, even ones that are out of
d> business?
d>
d> -Mike Substelny
Mike,
The DeLorean Owners Association has a Service Directory that lists all
Service Facilities that were verified by the Association two years ago.
It
is available to members of the Association for $2.00 plus shipping. Check
out the Association Home Page at:
www.delorean-owners.org
Ray
------------------------------
From: James Espey, mikasa(AT)goodnet.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:50:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Concours Rules and Regs
The current issue of DeLorean World (V13, #2) contains the official
COncours Rules and Regs that will be used at this years expo in
Nashville. For those that are interested, the Association has made these
rules and regs available at their web site
(http://www.delorean-owners.org).
James "Mikasa" Espey
Electronic Communications Director, DeLorean Owner's Association
http://www.delorean-owners.org
------------------------------
From: Widdomaker(AT)aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:51:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: reliability
I believe it is narrow thinking to claim that the Delorean is not
reliable.
I mean, I have no expectation of it being as reliable as my Toyota, but
let's put it into context for a moment. For example, built in a country
with
little or no experience at building cars, at a new facility, some of the
workers had never had jobs before, think of the training and the
monumentous
lagistics involved. Now how many cars were built? How much time did they
have to correct those various, relatively minor problems before things
ended?
I'd put my reliability record against the Briclkin, 70's Fat, and many
70s
American cars any day.
All things considered, IT'S A HELL OF A CAR!!!
------------------------------
From: Marvin S.Sterling, marv930(AT)ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:51:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Proper Brake Fluid (was Re: Creeping Brake Pedal)
mikasa(AT)goodnet.com wrote:
>
> STOP RIGHT THERE! (no pun intended)
>
> >pose any more of a challenge. One last thing: be certain to always use a
> >high-quality DOT 3 fluid, rated for disc brakes. Cheap or off-brand fluid
> >may boil during hot weather or hard braking, resulting in sudden & total
> >total loss of stopping ability. The least you'll suffer is heart
> >palpitations & dirty underwear! I speak from experience!!!
>
> USE ONLY AT DOT 4 BRAKE FLUID, preferably Castrl GTLMA DOT 4. British
> seals have a higher level of natural rubber than American or Japnese
> made seals and will doissolve in a lower level fluid. Don't let anyone
> blow smoke up your exhaust saying a lower DOT rating will do, use only a
> DOT 4, preferably Castrol GTLMA.
>
> James Espey---------------------message divider
Jim:
Rob Grady loaded mine with DOT 5
Marv Sterling
------------------------------
From: Mike Substelny, SUBSTEM(AT)cesmtp.ccf.org
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:59:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Mechanics
Ray said:
>The DeLorean Owners Association has a Service Directory
>that lists all Service Facilities that were verified by the
>Association two years ago.
I am aware of this list, but the three mechanics I mentioned
yesterday are not on it. Note that I mean individual
mechanics, not service facilities. At one of the garages
where I know a good DMC trained mechanic, I would not
even trust the other mechanics to park my car, so I would
*never* think of including the facility itself on a list. I
estimate that 80% of the DMC trained mechanics in
Cleveland are not listed. Frankly, one of the three
mechanics turned out to be incompetent, another was rusty
because he hadn't seen a DeLorean in ten years (but he
eventually did good work for me), and the third one works on
DeLoreans regularly.
------------------------------
From: aj532(AT)freenet.toronto.on.ca
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:08:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Electric Leaks
I have begun the process of trying to locate the electrical leak
in my system that causes my battery to die after only a couple of days.
After pulling each fuse, and taking measurements, I determined that the
only fused link that causes a draw is the clock/ cigarette lighter fuse.
My car has the clock in the radio, and there was no difference when I
disconnected the lighter. The radio clock only draws 0.002 mA. There is
another draw on the system that is not fused (ie: still draws with all
fuses removed). This draw is also 0.002 mA for a total draw of 0.004 mA
when the car is at rest.
For those of you with ammeters and DMC's with batteries that
don't go dead, could you please check for me and see if this is normal.
I would greatly appreciate it. I would also be interested in knowing
where that other 0.002 mA draw comes from. Any ideas?
Thanks
Eric
------------------------------
From: aj532(AT)freenet.toronto.on.ca
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:28:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fuel Filter Replacement
I'm about to replace the fuel filter and would appreciate any
hints as to how I might make this job go a little smoother. What is the
best way to release pressure in the lines before disconnecting the
filter. I
also noticed that the steel delivery line is quite corroded. Are these
fittings standard, or is the pipe assembly a special purchased item?
Thanks again
Eric
------------------------------
End of dmcnews-digest V2 #148
*****************************
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