Friday, March 12 1999 Volume 03 : Number 491
In this issue:
DML: French DMC owner coming to N.Y. from 11th to 17th...
Re: DML: Hard shifting
DML: possible DMC-12 info?
DML: DeLorean on Irish TV
Re: DML: French DMC owner coming to N.Y. from 11th to 17th...
DML: Side window installation
DML: DMC logo
Re: [DML: possible DMC-12 info?]
Re: DML: possible DMC-12 info?
DML: Delorean for sale
DML: Delorean mentioned
Re: DML: Delorean for sale
DML: Delorean designer emblem
Re: DML: Delorean designer emblem
Re: DML: Delorean designer emblem
DML: Re: Delorean designer emblem
DML: LAMBDA light and sluggish running engine while cold
DML: Any DML'ers in Baton Rouge?
DML: Another D in video game
DML: Weight Of Spacesaver
DML: [admin] HTML proficient DeLorean enthuasiast needed for DMC-News
DML: door guides
DML: classified ad
DML: Idle Speed Regulator
DML: Re: Weight Of Spacesaver
DML: Re: Idle Speed Regulator
DML: Delorean for Sale
Re: DML: Idle Speed Regulator
DML: engine and stuff?!?!?
DML: Yokohama tires for sale
Re: DML: engine and stuff?!?!?
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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:03:25 +0100 From: "Carte Blanche Limousine" <carteblanche@franceplus.com> Subject: DML: French DMC owner coming to N.Y. from 11th to 17th...
Does anyone know some good contacts for DMC parts or DMC-12 to see in N.Y ? I am coming from Paris for the limo show from the 11th to the 17th and it would be a pleasure to meet some DMC owner from NY to talk about different experience. If anyone need something for its DMC from France let me know... Don't forget that the V6 PRV is French; so the parts are cheeper here...
My tel number in NY: 718.488.8732
DMC yours
Cyril Binet VIN 1807
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Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 19:35:21 PST From: "Marc Barth" <d16y8@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: DML: Hard shifting
Whether or not one car contributes to overall pollution is a matter of opinion. I suppose any one car in the scheme of things doesn't amount to a whole lot. It's only common sense that you wouldn't take off at WOT on an engine that hasn't been running for a while. An old fashioned engine would be a carbuerated push rod engine not OHC fuel injected motors with O2 sensors etc. . that came in the Deloreans.
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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 23:31:38 -0800 (PST) From: Helmut Kohler <mrdmc12@yahoo.com> Subject: DML: possible DMC-12 info?
Hi everybody. I am looking into buying a certain "D" that is in my area. I called him today and am going to look at the car on Saturday. It is VIN# 1427. Does anyone know any info about this car? Like date of production and stuff like that? Just curious, I live on little 'tid bit's of information like that. What VIN did the gas flap hoods run 'til? It is a 5 speed, not sure yet what color interior. Always kept inside a building with has Ferrari's and Porsch's;-) He says it is in immaculate condition. The only somewhat downside, which in reality probably isn't a downside, but it has 50,000 miles on it. It's just he bought a new Ferrari, so he decided it was time to clean out his huge vehicle storage building. One thing I like about the car is that it has the dealer installed large Black side stripe. He is the original owner. It looks good from the pic. But any and all insight from you guys would be really helpful and greatly appreciated! Thanks!!!
Helmut Kohler, Jr.
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Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 01:12:05 PST From: "John Dore" <dmcjohn@hotmail.com> Subject: DML: DeLorean on Irish TV
Just a reminder to anyone who gets the Irish TV channels "Network 2", and "RTE-1" there's a piece on DeLoreans on tonight! (I forget which of these channels it's on...but it's on at about 9:30pm.)It's on a show called "Drive!" so take a look at it!! It was filmed in Belfast, in January, and we had 5 DeLoreans attending. We even did some shooting at the factory in Dunmurry... If you don't get this channel, then you can see some pics of the day at my webpage, and later you'll be able to download the TV clip in avi format. Bye now! John Dore, Ireland.
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Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 08:54:49 -0500 From: Marc A Levy <malevy@dnrc.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: DML: French DMC owner coming to N.Y. from 11th to 17th...
Yup!! NYC is a short 1 hour ride from PJ Grady. He usualy has 20 or more deloreans there, if you goal is to look at deloreans.
I have been looking for PRV6 performance parts that will work on the DMC. Do you know of any in France?
Carte Blanche Limousine wrote: > > Does anyone know some good contacts for DMC parts or DMC-12 to see in N.Y > ? > I am coming from Paris for the limo show from the 11th to the 17th and it > would be a pleasure to meet some DMC owner from NY to talk about different > experience. If anyone need something for its DMC from France let me > know... > Don't forget that the V6 PRV is French; so the parts are cheeper here... > > My tel number in NY: 718.488.8732 > > DMC yours > > Cyril Binet VIN 1807
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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:14:45 -0800 From: Greg Linstad <gregl@escmed.com> Subject: DML: Side window installation
Matt, (matthias@mediaone.net asked about rear window falling out) DMC Joe is correct. The key to a successful rear window reinstallation is the primer and adhesive. Following some damage to my rear panel a few years ago, I replaced the entire stainless panel. This required removing the window from the old panel (not an easy task even with the panel off), cleaning all the old adhesive off, and regluing it to the new panel. Unfortunately for you, the only way to properly reglue your window back in is to remove the stainless panel (not as hard a task as you might think), totally clean both the panel and the window, apply the primer to both parts, then reglue. I think that I used some kind of silicone (RTV) adhesive instead of the polyurethane. One thing to look for before starting is the space between the window and the panel. Mine had only adhesive (about one eighth inch thick) whereas some cars have a plastic spacer piece (about one fourth inch thick) that holds the window a consistant distance from the panel. I do not know how this would be held in place while regluing. When the panel is off you will see that it is quite flexible and will have to be held tightly to the window while the glue dries or the space between the window and the panel will not be the same. Good luck and you can e-mail me with any questions.
Greg Linstad (gregl@escmed.com) Pacific Northwest Delorean Club VIN # 3507 115,000 miles Washington plate "RUSTLSS"
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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:37:53 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Beaumont <mb007_97@yahoo.com> Subject: DML: DMC logo
Can anyone help me, my friend (he's the one that got me hooked on the car) has a D and it was sitting in a parking lot and someone had the nerve to steal his DMC logo from the front grill, taking half the grill with it. He had managed to buy a grill from someone who was parting out his D but the grill had no DMC logo. If any one knows where to get one, or if anyone has one please contact me at mb007_97@yahoo.com .I am doing this as a birthday gift for him so the least amount of time responding would be app.
Thanks
Mike Beaumont
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Date: 9 Mar 99 11:41:09 PST From: KIRK BRANDON <delorean02378@netscape.net> Subject: Re: [DML: possible DMC-12 info?]
Helmut Kohler <mrdmc12@yahoo.com> wrote: >Hi everybody. I am looking into buying a certain "D" that is in my >area. I called him today and am going to look at the car on Saturday. >It is VIN# 1427. Does anyone know any info about this car? Like date >of production and stuff like that? Just curious, I live on little 'tid >bit's of information like that. What VIN did the gas flap hoods run >'til? It is a 5 speed, not sure yet what color interior. Always kept >inside a building with has Ferrari's and Porsch's;-) He says it is in >immaculate condition. The only somewhat downside, which in reality >probably isn't a downside, but it has 50,000 miles on it. It's just he >bought a new Ferrari, so he decided it was time to clean out his huge >vehicle storage building. One thing I like about the car is that it >has the dealer installed large Black side stripe. He is the original >owner. It looks good from the pic. But any and all insight from you >guys would be really helpful and greatly appreciated! Thanks!!! > > Helmut Kohler, Jr.
Helmut,
According to the DeLorean Production Chronology (www.dmcnews.com/chronolgy.html) the car your looking at was built in May= of 81. The vin# 1427 is not on the list. Good luck. Kirk Vin#02378
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Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 20:55:37 MST From: "Adam Michael" <amichael10@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: DML: possible DMC-12 info?
No way, VIN#1427?! We own VIN#1428, so this car is probably very similar to ours. Our D has the gas flap, is a 5-speed, and has the black interior. Also has the clock in the console. If you would like any more info about our car so you might be able to compare it to the one you are going to look at, just ask. I'd be happy to answer any questions. I hope everything works out, and maybe if you purchase it, we could get together sometime and reunite the "twins". :)
Adam Michael, adammichael@hotmail.com The DeLorean Corner: http://members.tripod.com/~DeLoreanDMC/index.html
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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:15:35 -0800 From: "gundoctor" <gundoctor@email.msn.com> Subject: DML: Delorean for sale
Hello, I have a 1981 delorean coupe for sale. It has about 23 or 24 thousand miles on it. Has been kept in a garage for the last 6 years, and doesn't get driven very much. Has been painted red, but could stand to be re-painted or stripped back down to the bare stainless. Interior is silver with the automatic transmission. Electrical update kit has already been installed. Ran fine when last driven. Does need some TLC to bring it back to par. Nothing too serious though to worry about. Would like to sell it for cash, between 9 or 10 thousand seems fair for what it is. I might consider a trade if it is interesting, hot rod, harley davidson, who knows? Why not call me and lets have a chat. Call me at (707) 939-8856 after 6pm PST. Thank you for your interest! Gundoctor@msn.com
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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:58:39 -0500 From: "Watkins Family watbmv@megalink.net" <watbmv@megalink.net> Subject: DML: Delorean mentioned
There's one line mention of a Delorean in an online newsmagazine. The section is about car technology. you can find it at:
http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/digital/reports/cars/index.html
Tom #5732
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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:10:54 EST From: DeLorean31@aol.com Subject: Re: DML: Delorean for sale
I also saw a couple D's for sale here in NJ as I was looking before I got mine. Ther is a 1981 automatic with grey interior in North Jersey. Actually right around the corner from John Delorean's hoause. It has 2,000 miles on it and is the original owner who is a 75 year old man who is actually friends with John D. In fact we were supposed to have coffee with him if I came back up to see the car. He is asking 21,000 for it. He starts it and drives it to maintain it. I drove it and it ran great. Immaculate condition like it just came home from the showroom
Another 1981 one I saw here is for 10,000 and body is nice. Grey 5 speed. Interior has sun damage but I think it runs. Anyone interested let me know and I will give you info. Serious interests only please. Hope this helps anyone in the market for a D.
Gary VIN 3360
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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:48:03 EST From: DeLorean31@aol.com Subject: DML: Delorean designer emblem
I saw a D with an emblem on each side of the car under the vent directly behind each door. I t was a rectangular shaped emblem looked to be made of stainless steel. It had a small black DMC mark on it and it said something like "Designed by Giorgetto Giugario for Delorean Motor Company" or something like that. I probably spelled it wrong. Anyway it looked like factory emblems. Anyone heard of these before?
Gary VIN3360
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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:28:10 EST From: Ad8302@aol.com Subject: Re: DML: Delorean designer emblem
these are not factory emblems and are in fact aftermarket items. Delorean retailers used to and may still sell them.
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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:17:21 -0700 (MST) From: raddad@cmn.net Subject: Re: DML: Delorean designer emblem
Gary
These were not factory issued. The DeLorean Motor Center sold them in years past, as, I suspect, did other DMC repair facilities. There may still be some out there.
Dick Ryan VIN 16867
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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:31:09 -0600 From: "BRUCE BENSON" <delornut@worldnet.att.net> Subject: DML: Re: Delorean designer emblem
Gary,
I have them on my car and if you were in Cincinnati this past summer that may have been where you saw them on my car. I bought them from Don Steger at the DeLorean Motor Center in Garden Grove Calif. They were designed and made by the old DeLorean Club that published 'DeGULLWING". When they quit business, Don bought what they had left. I don't know if he still has any left. When I bought them there were about $20.
Bruce Benson
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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:29:54 -0500 From: "Larry Shulan" <lshulan@worldnet.att.net> Subject: DML: LAMBDA light and sluggish running engine while cold
My '81 started running a little sluggish until warmed up 2 weeks ago. = It seemed that if I gave it more throttle, it ran worse but if I shifted = and eased off the gas it was ok until higher rpms. Anyway, this morning = the LAMBDA light came on. The speedo says 26,000 but since the history = of this car is a little vague, I can't be sure that's accurate. I know = the book says the oxygen sensor should be changed at 30,000, so maybe my = mileage is off??? Anyway, what's involved in replacing the sensor and = how do I reset the light? Thanks for any help.
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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:17:54 -0000 From: James Espey <espey@dmcnews.com> Subject: DML: Any DML'ers in Baton Rouge?
Any DML'ers in Baton Rouge, Louisiana? I would like someone to check out a car for me if possible...thanks!
James Espey #10570
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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:21:03 -0800 From: "Ryan Bennett" <rpbennet@ix.netcom.com> Subject: DML: Another D in video game
Found another one...
Electronic Arts publishes a game called Need For Speed 3:Hot Pursuit. I found a DeLorean add-on vehicle that somebody had created which was very much out-of-spec. I am in the process of refining it for play (using actual specifications) which should yield a virtual D that performs very close to (virtual) reality.
If anybody is interested in getting the add-on, let me know.
Ryan Bennett Vin# 1085
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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:23:45 +0000 From: JOHN_GEULEY@HP-UnitedKingdom-om14.om.hp.com Subject: DML: Weight Of Spacesaver
Hi,
Can someone tell me the weight of the Space saver wheel ??
(Kilos or Pounds)
I am purchasing one from the USA and need to bring it back on the
plane but need to know the weight to see if it will require
excess baggage payment.
(32kgs is the maximum weight per single item)
Regards
John G.
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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:14:55 -0000 From: James Espey <espey@dmcnews.com> Subject: DML: [admin] HTML proficient DeLorean enthuasiast needed for DMC-News
I am in need of an HTML-savvy person to maintain an important section of the DMC-News website. Compensation is fame, glory and the promise of drinks should we ever meet in person at an event or elsewhere. Email me directly if intrigued - thanks!
James Espey Moderator, DeLorean Mailing List http://www.dmcnews.com
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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:14:23 -0500 From: "Jack Stiefel" <Stiefel@bladerunnertackle.com> Subject: DML: door guides
I am in the lookout for 2 unused Right Hand door guides. Not the metal = ones, but the plastic ones that help the door lower in place. Any = help?? Jack Stiefel President Blade Runner Tackle Corporation President Leslie Leasing Corporation Visit us at: http://www.bladerunnertackle.com or my DeLorean page at: = http://www.geocities.com/rodeodrive/8601/delorean.html Ny Lic # 1981 DMC
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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:55:24 PST From: "Floyd Hopper" <hopman2@hotmail.com> Subject: DML: classified ad
DeLorean windshield for sale. In original factory box and perfect. sold my car. Will take best offer over $350.00, Buyer to pay shipping, or you can pick up (Ft Worth, Tex). Bet you won't find another like this. Has date code stamp in lower left corner.
Email me.
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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:01:07 -0600 From: Greg Guillot <gguillot@mccno.com> Subject: DML: Idle Speed Regulator
Hi Everyone,
My idle speed regulator is shot. The unit seems to be frozen. I have tried applying 12volt power to it after removing it from the car, but I can't get it to spin. Does anyone know of a less expensive alternative than purchasing new? Was this component used on the Volvos? If so, I could probably check the junkyards, but I remember reading that the idle speed system is unique to the D. If anyone has a used one for sale, let me know.
Greg Guillot VIN 2926 ************************************************ Morial Convention Center - New Orleans Greg Guillot, Director of Info Systems & Services 900 Convention Center Blvd,New Orleans, LA 70130 Phone (504) 582-3116,Fax (504) 582-3104 Email gguillot@mccno.com ************************************************
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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:12:28 -0500 From: "DMC Joe" <DMCJOE@worldnet.att.net> Subject: DML: Re: Weight Of Spacesaver
John, With or without air?, just kidding. The space saver spare tire weighs 25 lb.'s.. Sender: dmcnews@world.std.com Precedence: list Reply-To: dmcnews@world.std.com
DMC Joe / DeLorean Services / <dmcjoe@att.net>
Web Site http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/3755/
3/15/99 <www.deloreanservices.com>
- ---------- > From: JOHN_GEULEY@HP-UnitedKingdom-om14.om.hp.com > To: dmcnews@world.std.com > Subject: DML: Weight Of Spacesaver > Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 10:23 AM > > Hi, > > Can someone tell me the weight of the Space saver wheel ?? > (Kilos or Pounds) > > I am purchasing one from the USA and need to bring it back on the > plane but need to know the weight to see if it will require > excess baggage payment. > (32kgs is the maximum weight per single item) > > > Regards > > John G.
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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:25:30 -0500 From: "DMC Joe" <DMCJOE@worldnet.att.net> Subject: DML: Re: Idle Speed Regulator
Greg, Your in luck; the DeLorean idle speed motor is compatible with all 1980 to 1987 Volvo 260 and 760 series GLE's with V-6 engines. There are units that are brass colored with a smaller body that are found in later Volvo's, 85-87, they are also compatible.
DMC Joe / DeLorean Services / <dmcjoe@att.net>
Web Site http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/3755/
3/15/99 <www.deloreanservices.com>
- ---------- > From: Greg Guillot <gguillot@mccno.com> > To: dmcnews@world.std.com > Subject: DML: Idle Speed Regulator > Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 5:01 PM > > Hi Everyone, > > My idle speed regulator is shot. The unit seems to be frozen. I have > tried > applying 12volt power to it after removing it from the car, but I can't > get it to > spin. > Does anyone know of a less expensive alternative than purchasing new? Was
> this component used on the Volvos? If so, I could probably check the > junkyards, but I remember reading that the idle speed system is unique to
> the D. If anyone has a used one for sale, let me know. > > Greg Guillot > VIN 2926
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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:10:53 -0500 From: Ronald L Klimes <ronklimes@juno.com> Subject: DML: Delorean for Sale
I came across a "D" for sale on a dealer's lot in my town (YORK,PA) this morning. It looks in good shape, body wise, and the dealor says it runs well. It is #1265 (which is quite early) is an automatic, has flap on hood, antenna in windshield, 37,000miles. It looks all original, except for tires. The interior is black and looks good, dash not cracked. He is asking 19,000 and is willing to deal. He says he bought it at auction & it belonged to a guy in Allentown, PA. If anyone is interested, just E-mail me and I can give you the info. The dealer doesn't care, but I would like it to have a nice home.
RON KLIMES
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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:09:15 -0500 From: David Sontos <sontos@ibm.net> Subject: Re: DML: Idle Speed Regulator
Greg, the idle speed regulator motor is a servo type motor, it doesn't spin. Its task is to position the valve inside to regulate the air flow to control the engine idle speed. This motor is controlled by the idle speed ecu behind the drivers seat. Can you move the valve inside with a small screwdriver? Do you have continuity between the terminals. If it moves, push it all the way open or closed from where it was. Now try touching 12volts to the terminals, you should see the valve has moved. If it did chances are its good. If you have continuity and the valve doesn't move try some lubricant inside to loosen the valve, the valve should move freely when you push it with a screwdriver. Also check up inside the connector and make sure you see three terminals inside the connector in the wire harness. Mine had a terminal pushed out the back of the connector and was only making intermittent contact. Chances are your ecu is shot if you are having idle speed problems.
Greg Guillot wrote:
> Hi Everyone, > > My idle speed regulator is shot. The unit seems to be frozen. I have > tried > applying 12volt power to it after removing it from the car, but I can't > get it to > spin. > Does anyone know of a less expensive alternative than purchasing new? Was > this component used on the Volvos? If so, I could probably check the > junkyards, but I remember reading that the idle speed system is unique to > the D. If anyone has a used one for sale, let me know. > > Greg Guillot > VIN 2926
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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:40:08 EST From: MORFORU2C@aol.com Subject: DML: engine and stuff?!?!?
Hello guys and gals! I was just wondering how reliable is a DeLorean engine, starter, alternator, transmission/cluch, etc....? Also how easily is it to find replacement parts if anything big like the above goes out? See, I am thinking of buying a DeLorean, I have loved them sense they came out in 81. I have heard horror stories for them always breaking down and just wondering if that is true and if I could like go down to a pep boys or something and replace them or would I have to find a DeLorean part distributor if so how much are we talking here for replacements? Darn, this is a long e-mail. OK I will shut up now.
Please help me.
Thanks a lot, Jason Vin #: Hopefully soon.
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Date: 12 Mar 99 08:08:28 MET From: TOMCIO <tomciodmc@usa.net> Subject: DML: Yokohama tires for sale
Hello everybody,
I've got 10 sets of Yokohama tires, AVS intermediate, for sale. They are V-rated, up to 149 mph. I think they are the best tires for a D. These ti= res match original tires exactly: 195/60VR14 and 235/60VR15. These tires are brand new and I can sell them for $600 a set (4 tires) pl= us shipping at cost (UPS). Please email me at tomciodmc@usa.net if you would like to get a set.
Tom Niemczewski tomciodmc@usa.net vin 6298
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Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:13:58 -0500 (EST) From: William T Wilson <fluffy@snurgle.org> Subject: Re: DML: engine and stuff?!?!?
On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 MORFORU2C@aol.com wrote:
> Hello guys and gals! I was just wondering how reliable is a DeLorean > engine, > starter, alternator, transmission/cluch, etc....? Also how easily is it to
woo, you asked a bunch of questions. :}
In general, all of these parts are very reliable. The alternator is underpowered on the earlier models (replacements available) and the auto transmission is prone to overheating and computer problems (upgrades available for that too), both of these can cause some problems. The engine is exceptionally reliable as long as it is well maintained and not overheated. The clutch and 5/speed are usually pretty good, although there have been some trouble on the 5-speeds with synchro gears and roll pins, nothing that doesn't happen to any other 5-speed. It is rare to have a major engine failure.
> find replacement parts if anything big like the above goes out? See, I
You want to go to a DeLorean supplier for these things, just to keep them in business. There will always be Pep Boys, but DeLorean specialists are few and far between. The DeLorean engine is a Volvo V6, and many engine parts are compatible with Volvos of the era. Those parts which are not compatible, are normally things which don't wear out, like manifolds and oil pans and things. However for the transmission, suspension, and chassis, most of the parts are unique to the DeLorean.
The DeLorean parts suppliers are extremely knowledgeable about the car, whereas Pep Boys will say "Do you mean a DeSoto?" or "We can't help you, that car has a helicopter engine." Their prices are very reasonable - if you have experience trying to buy OEM parts for other exotic cars, the DeLorean is very different. :}
> 81. I have heard horror stories for them always breaking down and just
Of course they break down. It's a sports car, isn't it? How are you supposed to bond with it, if you don't have to fix it? :} However, the problems with the DeLorean are very deterministic. It is rare to have a truly strange problem. Normally, if you have a problem, someone else has had it already and can tell you how to fix it. And, most of the common failure components have aftermarket replacements which fail much less. Most failures are due to old, worn-out parts, rusted electrical contacts, loose bolts, and things like that. It is 18 years old, after all. The DeLorean, if well treated, can be an exceptionally reliable car. It will never be a Honda Civic, but it's one of the most reliable sports cars there is.
It can also be a complete nightmare. If you're the sort who doesn't like to spend a lot of time tinkering around, be sure to buy a car which has been driven regularly and, preferably, with most of the upgrades already in place. A car with 50,000 miles may well be more reliable than one with 20,000 miles, just because it's been driven more and it's likely that during that time, most of the problems will have already been fixed.
Send postings to "dmcnews@world.std.com" Before posting, search the archives! www.dmcnews.com/search.html Thank you!
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End of dmcnews-digest V3 #491 *****************************
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